Monday, April 29, 2013

Light Reading: A Look Back at an Old Deposition from 2006

Sometimes you get tired of facts and figures. Here is a "human interest" story.

This is an old posting from 2009. Considering the behavior of the former NYCERS Chair, Martha Stark , that came to light last year, this deposition of Karen Mazza from November, 2006 is worth a second read.

You will notice our old friend Paul Marks making an appearance. This deposition was given two months after Dara Ottley-Brown was moved over to Standards and Appeals. She's still there at $151K/year. One month later Stark begins a short term affair with Subordinate 2 at Finance. At least that's the start date that Subordinate 2 gave to DOI.

The first thing you should do is scan for all the times Mazza answers "I don't remember" (50 times) or "I don't know" (30 times). These phrases speak for themselves. Page 60 is the start of a very entertaining section.




           3     COUNTY OF NEW YORK

           4     ------------------------------------x

           5     JOHN J. MURPHY,

           6                           Plaintiff,

           7                                 Index No.

           8                -against-        106059/06






          14                           Defendants.

          15     ------------------------------------x

          16                           November 21, 2006

          17                           10:35  a.m.


          19                Deposition of KAREN MAZZA, held at the

          20     offices of Corporation Counsel of the City of New

          21     York, 100 Church Street, New York, New York,

          22     pursuant to notice, before Barbara Driscoll, a

          23     Notary Public of the State of New York.





           2     A P P E A R A N C E S:


           4          ROSEMARY CARROLL, ESQ.

           5          Attorney for Plaintiff

           6                 3712 Route 9G

           7                Germantown, New York 12526



          10          MICHAEL CARDOZO

          11          Attorneys for Defendants

          12                New York City Law Department

          13                Office of the Corporation Counsel

          14                100 Church Street

          15                New York, New York 10007-2061

          16          BY:   PAUL MARKS, ESQ.,

          17                           of Counsel











           2                IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED, by

           3          and between the attorneys for the respective

           4          parties herein, that filing and sealing be and

           5          the same are hereby waived.


           7                IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED

           8          that all objections, except as to the form of

           9          the question, shall be reserved to the time

          10          of the trial.


          12                IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED

          13          that the within deposition may be signed and

          14          sworn to before any officer authorized to

          15          administer an oath, with the same force and

          16          effect as if signed and sworn to before the

          17          officer before whom the within deposition was

          18          taken.









           1                            Mazza

           2     K A R E N   M A Z Z A,

           3     called as a witness, having been first duly sworn

           4     by the Notary Public (Barbara Driscoll), was

           5     examined and testified as follows:

           6     EXAMINATION BY

           7     MS. CARROLL:

           8          Q.    Please state your full name.

           9          A.    Karen Mazza.

          10          Q.    My name is Rosemary Carroll.  I am the

          11     attorney for the plaintiff in this civil action.

          12     I will be asking you some questions regarding the

          13     claims in the case.

          14                You are required to answer those

          15     questions truthfully and to the best of your

          16     ability by an oral statement.  Don't shake your

          17     head.  Answer orally.  At any time you wish to

          18     speak with your lawyer, you may do so, except when

          19     a question is pending.  At that point you can't

          20     speak with your lawyer.

          21                If you wish to take a break at any

          22     time, you may do so, just ask.  If you don't

          23     understand a question, ask me and I will rephrase

          24     it for you.  Those are the rules.  I will assume

          25     if you answer a question, you understood it and


           1                            Mazza

           2     that your answer will be the answer that will be

           3     in the record and will be part of this case.

           4                Is there any reason that you could not

           5     testify truthfully today?

           6          A.    No.

           7          Q.    Are you under any medication?

           8          A.    No.

           9          Q.    Prior to this deposition, did you

          10     review any documents?

          11          A.    Yes.

          12          Q.    What documents did you review?

          13                Do you have them with you?

          14          A.    No.

          15          Q.    What documents did you review?

          16          A.    The transcript of my testimony at DOI.

          17          Q.    When you say the transcript of the

          18     testimony, was it a Q and A or was it a summary?

          19          A.    It was a Q and A.  It was given to

          20     me -- I think it was prepped by you.

          21                What else did I look at?  Other --

          22     summary of E-mails, the letter that was sent to

          23     the board of trustees.

          24          Q.    The letter that was sent to the board

          25     of trustees by whom?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    An anonymous person.

           3          Q.    The anonymous letter?

           4          A.    The DOI report.

           5          Q.    The summary of E-mails, you mean the

           6     actual E-mails themselves or was there a summary

           7     of E-mails?

           8          A.    The E-mails themselves but not in

           9     individual pages.  They were sort of all put

          10     together.

          11          Q.    From whom did you obtain the materials

          12     that you reviewed in connection with this

          13     deposition?

          14                You said you got the transcripts from

          15     Mr. Marks.

          16          A.    From Paul.

          17                I think I got the anonymous letter I

          18     got from the trustees, and the DOI report I got

          19     from the trustees.

          20          Q.    The transcript of the testimony and the

          21     summary of the E-mails, were they reviewed by you

          22     proximate to this deposition?  By that I mean

          23     within the last few weeks or so.

          24          A.    Yes.

          25          Q.    The anonymous letter which you said you


           1                            Mazza

           2     had from one of the trustees, did you have that

           3     letter well prior to your preparation for this

           4     deposition?

           5          A.    Yes.

           6          Q.    Is that also with respect to the DOI

           7     report?

           8          A.    Yes.

           9          Q.    In addition to a Mr. Marks, is there

          10     any other person with whom you discussed in any

          11     manner and in any regard the deposition today?

          12          A.    I notified Diane D'Alassandro, the

          13     executive director, that I was coming.  That was

          14     it.

          15          Q.    Didn't speak with any other person,

          16     Felita Baksh, your immediate supervisor?

          17          A.    Diane is my immediate superviser.

          18          Q.    What about any other person?

          19          A.    Just to tell people I would be out of

          20     the office today.

          21          Q.    Who was that?

          22          A.    My staff, other directors at NYCERS.

          23          Q.    What about the subject area of the

          24     deposition; did you discuss it with

          25     Ms. D'Alassandro?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Just to tell her it was a deposition in

           3     this particular case.

           4          Q.    Any other conversation about the

           5     deposition with any other person?

           6          A.    No.

           7          Q.    I mean at any time since you knew you

           8     were going to be deposed.

           9          A.    Other than telling people I was going

          10     to be out of the office for the deposition, no

          11     other discussion.

          12          Q.    Have you had any discussion with Martha

          13     Stark within the last month regarding this matter

          14     or any matter?

          15          A.    No -- regarding any other matter?  Yes.

          16     She is the chair of the body of trustees.

          17          Q.    But your conversations with her did not

          18     involve the deposition you were scheduled for?

          19          A.    No.

          20          Q.    You're aware she had a deposition in

          21     this case?

          22          A.    Yes.

          23          Q.    How are you aware of that?

          24          A.    I was told of the dates of her

          25     deposition by Mr. Marks.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    Did Ms. Stark discuss with you her

           3     deposition in any regard?

           4          A.    No.

           5          Q.    Are you employed by NYCERS?

           6          A.    Yes.

           7          Q.    When were you first hired by NYCERS?

           8          A.    February 1997.

           9          Q.    By whom were you hired?

          10          A.    Mr. Murphy.

          11          Q.    In what capacity?

          12          A.    General counsel.

          13          Q.    You're a lawyer?

          14          A.    Yes.

          15          Q.    When were you admitted to the bar?

          16          A.    April 1983.

          17          Q.    Prior to being hired in February of

          18     1997 by NYCERS, did you have any employment in

          19     city government?

          20          A.    Yes.

          21          Q.    Did you ever work for the department of

          22     finance?

          23          A.    Yes.

          24          Q.    When was that?

          25          A.    From 1992 to 1994 or 1995 -- I am


           1                            Mazza

           2     trying to remember.

           3          Q.    In what capacity did you work for the

           4     department of finance?

           5          A.    I was counsel to mayor's pension unit.

           6          Q.    Who was the commissioner of the

           7     department of finance?

           8          A.    Carol O'Cleireacain.

           9          Q.    Counsel to the mayor's pension unit is

          10     a position different from counsel to the

          11     department of finance?

          12          A.    Yes.

          13          Q.    Who was the counsel to the department

          14     of finance?

          15          A.    I don't remember.

          16          Q.    Was that your first job in city

          17     government?

          18          A.    No.

          19          Q.    What was your first job in city

          20     government?

          21          A.    I was an assistant general counsel and

          22     deputy general counsel in the department of

          23     probation.

          24          Q.    When was that?

          25          A.    1983 to 1987.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    Did you subsequently work for the city

           3     between 1987 and 1992?

           4          A.    No.

           5          Q.    Where were you working between 1987 and

           6     1992?

           7          A.    Westchester County District Attorney's

           8     Office.

           9          Q.    What were you doing?

          10          A.    I was an assistant DA in the MTA

          11     Inspector General's office.

          12          Q.    When was that, the Inspector General's

          13     office?

          14          A.    I am trying to think of the years.

          15                1988 to 1992 or late 1987 to 1992.

          16          Q.    Then 1992 to 1994, you worked for

          17     finance.

          18                What was your next job after finance?

          19          A.    I worked for New York City

          20     Comptroller's office.

          21          Q.    When was that?

          22          A.    1994 to 1997.

          23          Q.    In that employment, did you have

          24     occasion to work with Martha Stark in any

          25     capacity?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    At the comptroller's office?

           3          Q.    Yes.

           4          A.    No.

           5          Q.    What about in finance?

           6          A.    She was also employed at finance, but I

           7     didn't work with her.  We were in separate

           8     divisions.

           9          Q.    You're currently employed as general

          10     counsel at NYCERS?

          11          A.    No.

          12          Q.    Do you have any disciplinary record in

          13     any of your employment with the city?

          14          A.    No.

          15          Q.    By disciplinary record, I mean either

          16     written specifications and charges or any sort of

          17     reprimand or inclusion in your personnel file of

          18     anything that would be disciplinary.

          19          A.    Not that I am aware of, no.

          20          Q.    You have never been reprimanded in any

          21     of the capacities you have served in in city

          22     government?

          23          A.    No.

          24          Q.    I will show you what was previously

          25     marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 to the DeFreitas


           1                            Mazza

           2     deposition and inquire as to whether or not this

           3     is the anonymous letter you referred to when I

           4     asked you what document you had reviewed in

           5     connection with the deposition today.

           6          A.    Yes.

           7          Q.    When is the first time that you saw

           8     this letter?

           9          A.    I don't know exactly, but it was

          10     subsequent to my interview with DOI.

          11                MS. CARROLL:  Off the record.

          12                (Discussion off the record.)

          13                MS. CARROLL:  Mark this as Mazza

          14          Exhibit 1.

          15                (Mazza Exhibit 1, document, marked for

          16          identification, as of this date.)

          17          Q.    I will show you this document.

          18                We can agree that your interview was

          19     July 13, 2004?

          20          A.    Yes.

          21          Q.    Turn to pages 14 and 15, please, and

          22     read that to yourself.  I want to ask you some

          23     questions regarding obtaining of the anonymous

          24     letter, Exhibit 1, to the DeFreitas deposition.

          25                The anonymous letter is dated June 1.


           1                            Mazza

           2     Are you certain that you didn't receive it on or

           3     about June 8, 2004?

           4          A.    I did not see it on June 8, no.

           5          Q.    You were told about it on June 8?

           6          A.    I was asked how I -- I was asked -- as

           7     I said in here, I was asked by a trustee how I

           8     was -- in light of the letter which I asked her

           9     what letter, she proceeded to tell me about the

          10     letter that had been written.

          11          Q.    Who is the trustee?

          12          A.    Diane Bratcher.

          13          Q.    She told you on or about June 8?

          14          A.    Yes.

          15          Q.    What did she tell you about the letter?

          16          A.    To the best of my recollection, she

          17     told me that the trustees had received an

          18     anonymous letter alleging that Mr. Murphy and

          19     Ms. Browne were having an affair and it also

          20     included information about me, that I had helped

          21     Felita Baksh to fix up her resume for a job at

          22     NYCERS.

          23                MS. CARROLL:  Read that back, please.

          24                (Record read.)

          25          Q.    Was there any mention by Ms. Baksh to


           1                            Mazza

           2     you that there were allegations in the letter that

           3     Browne received raises and promotions not on the

           4     merits but because of her affair with Murphy?  Do

           5     you remember her telling you that?

           6          A.    I don't remember.

           7          Q.    As you sit here, can you categorically

           8     say it didn't happen or is it just you don't

           9     remember one way or the other?

          10          A.    I would say she didn't tell me that

          11     much that day till -- that way because we were

          12     standing in a hallway, so I would say no.

          13          Q.    My question isn't detail.  My question

          14     is, had she told you about the letter, that there

          15     are allegations of misconduct, i.e., that Murphy

          16     had given promotions and raises; any mention about

          17     that whatsoever concerning Browne?

          18          A.    I don't remember.

          19          Q.    When she said there was information

          20     about fixing Baksh's resume, you said there was

          21     information to that effect?

          22          A.    Yes.

          23          Q.    What did you say to her when you got

          24     that information?

          25          A.    I don't remember.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    Did Ms. Baksh say anything additional

           3     regarding whether or not John Murphy admitted or

           4     denied the relationship?

           5          A.    Do you mean Ms. Bratcher?

           6                MS. CARROLL:  Read back the question.

           7                (Record read.)

           8          Q.    Change it to Bratcher, yes.

           9                MS. CARROLL:  Read it back again.

          10                (Record read.)

          11          A.    No.

          12          Q.    When you were asked at the DOI

          13     interview, you didn't reveal the name according to

          14     transcript.  Were you ever compelled by DOI to

          15     provide the name?

          16          A.    No.

          17          Q.    What additional information, phone call

          18     did you get from a trustee about the letter?

          19          A.    I don't understand what you mean.

          20          Q.    In the last sentence of the transcript

          21     on page 15 in the area I asked you to read, it

          22     says, then I got a phone call from another

          23     trustee.

          24                Who was the trustee?

          25          A.    It was two trustees, Mike Musaraca and


           1                            Mazza

           2     Joel Giller, G I L L E R.

           3          Q.    You called them or they called you?

           4          A.    They called me.

           5          Q.    When did Musaraca call you, prior to

           6     Bratcher telling you?

           7          A.    No.

           8          Q.    Prior to you being interviewed by DOI?

           9          A.    Yes.

          10          Q.    We are talking about a date sometime

          11     after June 8 and prior to July 31 of 2004?

          12          A.    It was June 9.

          13                MR. MARKS:  The date of interview is

          14          June 13.  You said 31.

          15          Q.    Mike Musaraca called you June 9, 2004?

          16          A.    Yes, and Mike Musaraca.  They were on

          17     the phone together.

          18          Q.    Who was Joel Giller at that time?

          19          A.    He was in counsel's office at DC 37.  I

          20     don't know what his exact title was.

          21          Q.    Who was Mike Musaraca at that time?

          22          A.    He was in -- he works and worked for DC

          23     37 and they were both trustees at NYCERS, but I

          24     don't know what Mr. Musaraca's title was.

          25          Q.    They were both board --


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Members.

           3          Q.    -- Musaraca Giller at the time you got

           4     the call on June 9, 2004, were on the board of

           5     trustees for NYCERS representative of DC 37?

           6          A.    Yes.

           7          Q.    Did you have any other contact with the

           8     trustees about the anonymous letter prior to the

           9     July 13 DOI interview?

          10          A.    I don't remember.

          11          Q.    Did you ever have any conversation with

          12     any specific trustee other than Giller, Musaraca

          13     or Bratcher prior to July 13, 2004?

          14          A.    I don't -- I don't remember.

          15          Q.    Did you have any conversation with

          16     Toussaint --

          17          A.    No.

          18          Q.    -- or Martinez?

          19          A.    I may -- I do remember saying to Ramon

          20     I didn't do anything wrong.  I did not speak to

          21     Roger Toussaint.

          22          Q.    In this conversation that you had with

          23     Mike Musaraca and Joel Giller, what did they say

          24     to you when they called you?

          25          A.    They asked me how I was doing.  They


           1                            Mazza

           2     asked me if I knew about the letter and I replied

           3     that I did.

           4          Q.    Did you tell them how you knew about

           5     the letter?

           6          A.    No.

           7          Q.    What did you tell them you knew about

           8     the letter?

           9          A.    I don't think I told them --

          10                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          11                You can answer.

          12          A.    I don't think I told them that -- I

          13     didn't say anything specific about what I knew was

          14     in the letter.  I told them that I had spoken to

          15     John and let them know I knew about the letter.

          16          Q.    What did you tell John, I knew about

          17     the letter.

          18          A.    I told them that one of the trustees

          19     approached me and told me that they had received

          20     an anonymous letter, received an anonymous letter

          21     regarding him and Ms. Browne.  That is all I said

          22     about the letter.  That is all I said about the

          23     letter.  I said that --

          24          Q.    When did you speak with John Murphy

          25     about the letter?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    June 9.

           3          Q.    Was this prior to the Musaraca/Giller

           4     phone call?

           5          A.    Yes.

           6          Q.    Murphy told you that he was having a

           7     relationship with Browne?

           8          A.    No, he did not.

           9          Q.    Did Murphy deny the relationship?

          10          A.    No, he did not.

          11          Q.    What did he say about it?

          12          A.    He didn't say anything.  He asked me

          13     how -- he didn't say anything about the

          14     relationship.

          15          Q.    You didn't ask him about it?

          16          A.    No.

          17          Q.    What about the allegations in the

          18     letter that Brown received promotions and raises

          19     because of the relationship; did you discuss that

          20     with Musaraca and Giller?

          21          A.    No.

          22          Q.    What did you discuss with them other

          23     than you knew about the letter?

          24          A.    I told them that I had spoken to John

          25     -- I told them I was upset, that I had spoken to


           1                            Mazza

           2     John and that was the extent of it.

           3          Q.    Did they tell you that they had spoken

           4     with Mr. Murphy or with anybody else about the

           5     letter?

           6          A.    The exact -- they didn't say they spoke

           7     to him.  The exact words they said to me was he

           8     doesn't deny it.

           9          Q.    Meaning the relationship?

          10          A.    Yes.

          11          Q.    Did they say anything regarding whether

          12     he denied the allegations regarding Browne's

          13     promotions and raise; was that subject raised?

          14          A.    I am sorry.

          15          Q.    You know that the letter contains

          16     allegations that Browne received raises and

          17     promotions because of the relationship with

          18     Murphy, correct?

          19          A.    Right.

          20                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.  I

          21          don't want to make a speaking objection, but

          22          she did testify she hadn't seen the letter.

          23                MS. CARROLL:  But now she knows the

          24          letter.

          25          Q.    Was there any discussion at or about


           1                            Mazza

           2     this time about the allegation that Browne

           3     received the raises and promotions because of her

           4     relationship with Murphy?

           5          A.    No.

           6          Q.    How long were you on the phone with

           7     Giller and Musaraca?

           8          A.    Maybe five minutes.

           9          Q.    Did they fax you the letter?

          10          A.    No.

          11          Q.    Did they discuss anything further about

          12     the content of the letter?

          13          A.    No.

          14          Q.    Didn't you discuss with them the

          15     allegation against you regarding Baksh's resume?

          16          A.    No.

          17          Q.    You didn't discuss that at all?

          18          A.    No.

          19          Q.    You knew about the letter prior to the

          20     time you spoke with Mr. Murphy?

          21          A.    On June 9?

          22          Q.    Yes.

          23          A.    Yes.

          24          Q.    Baksh spoke to you before Murphy did?

          25          A.    Yes.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    In your conversation with Musaraca and

           3     Giller, you didn't mention to them that you were

           4     annoyed about the allegation against you?

           5                MR. MARKS:  Objection to form.

           6                You can answer.

           7          A.    I don't think so.  I don't remember.

           8          Q.    There is a mention on page 15 to Mazza

           9     deposition that you got -- it appears to be

          10     another phone call; is that accurate?  Was there a

          11     third phone call, a third contact?

          12          A.    No.

          13                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          14          Q.    It says on the top of page 15, then I

          15     got a call from another trustee.  Then later on,

          16     it says from two trustees.

          17                Does that refer to the universe of

          18     Bratcher, Giller and Musaraca and that is it?

          19          A.    There is one phone call and it was from

          20     Mike Musaraca and Joel Giller.

          21          Q.    That is the five minute phone call?

          22          A.    Correct.

          23          Q.    There was only one of those?

          24          A.    Correct.

          25          Q.    The contact with Bratcher was by phone


           1                            Mazza

           2     or otherwise?

           3          A.    No.  It was on June 8 at a --

           4          Q.    At the law department function?

           5          A.    Yes, seminar.

           6          Q.    She told you that the letter existed?

           7          A.    Yes.

           8          Q.    She told you about the allegation of

           9     the affair in the letter?

          10          A.    Yes.

          11          Q.    With respect to the issue of raises or

          12     promotions, what did Bratcher tell you?

          13          A.    I don't remember her telling me

          14     anything about that.

          15          Q.    What about the subject of your

          16     doctoring the Baksh's resume; what was your

          17     conversation about that?

          18                MR. MARKS:  Objection to form.

          19                You can answer.

          20          A.    I don't remember.

          21          Q.    What did you tell Bratcher when she

          22     told you about the letter?

          23                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          24                You can answer.

          25          A.    What did I tell Bratcher when she told


           1                            Mazza

           2     me about the letter, when she told me about the

           3     allegation or the letter?

           4          Q.    Yes.  When she told you about the

           5     allegation in the letter, about Murphy and Browne

           6     having an affair and that it was alleged that you

           7     altered the letter or fixed the resume.

           8          A.    I don't remember her telling me about

           9     the part about me.

          10                I do remember her telling me about the

          11     part about the affair and I said to her it is not

          12     true.  I know it is not true.

          13          Q.    There was a meeting scheduled by the

          14     board of trustees of NYCERS in June of 2004.  One

          15     subject of which was this anonymous letter; do you

          16     recall that?

          17          A.    There was a regular board of trustees

          18     meeting.

          19          Q.    This was one of the issues for that

          20     agenda for that meeting, correct?

          21          A.    Yes.

          22          Q.    Prior to that meeting, did you submit

          23     any material to refute the allegation in the

          24     letter that you had revised Baksh's resume?

          25          A.    I had not seen the letter at that


           1                            Mazza

           2     point.

           3          Q.    Yes, but you knew prior to the meeting

           4     that the allegation was made, right?

           5          A.    Had I --

           6          Q.    Is that right?

           7          A.    Yes.

           8          Q.    My question is, did you submit anything

           9     to the trustees regarding that allegation?

          10          A.    No.

          11          Q.    Did you speak to anybody about it?

          12          A.    Anybody in the world?

          13          Q.    Anybody in city government, at NYCERS.

          14          A.    I am sure I did.

          15          Q.    You spoke to Baksh?

          16          A.    I may have.  I don't remember speaking

          17     to --

          18          Q.    You spoke to Browne?

          19          A.    I spoke to Mr. Murphy, I am sure.  I

          20     spoke to Mr. Aron, I am sure.  I spoke to

          21     Ms. Browne, I am sure.  I spoke to Ms. Baksh.

          22          Q.    Did you in speaking to Mr. Murphy and

          23     Mr. Aron admit that, in fact, you had made some

          24     changes in the resume of Baksh?

          25          A.    I don't remember what I said to them.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    What about to Browne and Baksh; what

           3     was your conversation?

           4          A.    I don't remember exactly what the

           5     conversation was.

           6          Q.    I don't need exactly --

           7          A.    I don't remember.

           8          Q.    Let me finish.  The gist of your

           9     conversation --

          10          A.    I don't remember.

          11          Q.    You don't remember anything you said to

          12     Murphy, Aron, Browne or Baksh about the allegation

          13     in the anonymous letter regarding yourself.

          14          A.    No.

          15          Q.    It is your testimony that you didn't

          16     say anything to either Giller or Musaraca about

          17     the allegations in the letter regarding yourself?

          18          A.    I don't recall discussing it with them.

          19          Q.    This board of trustee meeting in June

          20     of 2004 in which the Exhibit 1 in DeFreitas is

          21     considered, were you in attendance at that

          22     meeting?

          23          A.    I was not in attendance when the letter

          24     was discussed.

          25          Q.    Which lawyers, if any, were, to your


           1                            Mazza

           2     knowledge?

           3          A.    I don't think there were any lawyers in

           4     the -- I don't know.  I don't think there were any

           5     lawyers in the room when they discussed it.

           6          Q.    Do you know Susan Sanders was there or

           7     any of the other law department attorneys?

           8          A.    I don't think so.

           9          Q.    You don't know as a fact?

          10          A.    No.

          11          Q.    Did you remember seeing an agenda in

          12     which the letter was referenced?

          13          A.    No.

          14          Q.    Had you been at the meeting when it was

          15     called to order?

          16          A.    Yes.

          17          Q.    There came a time when the letter came

          18     up for discussion and you left the room?

          19          A.    I believe they went into executive

          20     session.

          21          Q.    What is executive session?

          22          A.    It is off-the-record discussion among

          23     the trustees.

          24          Q.    Is it always off the record?

          25          A.    No.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    Who makes the determination of whether

           3     it is off the record?

           4          A.    The trustees themselves.

           5          Q.    By vote or how?

           6          A.    By motion.

           7          Q.    Is that motion recorded?

           8          A.    Yes.

           9     RQ         MS. CARROLL:  I will make a demand for

          10          that which I will put in writing.  I would

          11          like the transcript of that portion that

          12          indicates that this executive session off the

          13          record was voted.

          14                MR. MARKS:  You have it.

          15                MS. CARROLL:  That one page, that is

          16          the whole thing?

          17                MR. MARKS:  It is more than one page.

          18          It indicates they are going into executive

          19          session --

          20                MS. CARROLL:  But it doesn't say off

          21          the record.

          22                MR. MARKS:  You have a transcript of

          23          whatever proceeding before the NYCERS board --

          24          the transcript of everything that occurred

          25          before they went to executive session.  There


           1                            Mazza

           2          is nothing else.

           3          Q.    You don't know one way or the other

           4     whether there was a motion in this particular case

           5     to have the executive session off the record,

           6     right?

           7          A.    Do I know it right --

           8          Q.    Do you know it as a fact?

           9          A.    From that date?

          10          Q.    Yes.

          11          A.    I don't remember.

          12          Q.    So you don't know it as a fact.

          13                How long was this off the record

          14     executive discussion?

          15          A.    I don't remember.

          16          Q.    Who was in attendance at that executive

          17     session other than the trustees, if anyone?  Was

          18     there any outside person called in to your

          19     knowledge?

          20          A.    I don't remember.

          21          Q.    Did they ever ask you to make any

          22     presentation?

          23          A.    No.

          24          Q.    What occurred after the executive

          25     session was concluded?  Did the meeting resume for


           1                            Mazza

           2     starters?

           3          A.    Yes.

           4          Q.    When the meeting resumed, was there any

           5     statement as to what would occur?

           6          A.    I don't remember.

           7          Q.    Did you have any role in the decision

           8     to refer the allegations mentioned in Exhibit 1 to

           9     DOI?

          10          A.    No.

          11          Q.    Had you been consulted in any regard by

          12     any of the trustees as to a course of action that

          13     should be taken in connection with the allegations

          14     in Exhibit 1?

          15          A.    No.

          16          Q.    When you heard that there was this

          17     letter from the trustees as you testified, did you

          18     indicate to them that legal counsel should be

          19     involved in the decision as to how to handle the

          20     Exhibit 1?

          21          A.    No.

          22          Q.    To your knowledge, had other complaints

          23     or allegations with respect to NYCERS that came

          24     before the board been referred to DOI?

          25          A.    Say that again.


           1                            Mazza

           2                MS. CARROLL:  Read it back.

           3                (Record read.)

           4          A.    Referred by the board?

           5          Q.    Yes.

           6          A.    Yes.

           7          Q.    Exhibit 1 makes mention of a intimate

           8     relationship between Murphy and Browne.

           9                You had prior to June 8 or June 9 of

          10     2004 heard rumors of such a relationship?

          11          A.    Yes.

          12          Q.    Did you ever advise John Murphy of the

          13     rumors?

          14          A.    Yes.

          15          Q.    When was that?

          16          A.    I don't know exact dates.

          17          Q.    We are talking about June of 2004

          18     immediately, prior a year prior?

          19          A.    I would say anywhere from the time we

          20     moved to Adams Street which was in 2000 up until

          21     2004.

          22          Q.    When you say moved to Adams Street, you

          23     mean moving NYCERS --

          24          A.    Yes.

          25          Q.    -- in about 2000?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Yes.

           3          Q.    You advised Murphy in or about 2000

           4     that you were aware of rumors that there was a

           5     relationship between Murphy and Browne?

           6          A.    No.

           7                What I said was anywhere between 2000

           8     when we moved to Adams Street and 2004, I would

           9     have advised him of rumors that I had heard.

          10          Q.    But you don't know when you so advised

          11     him?

          12          A.    No.

          13          Q.    Was it on more than one occasion?

          14          A.    Yes.

          15          Q.    You have to let me finish the question.

          16          A.    Sorry.

          17          Q.    Was anybody there other than you and

          18     Murphy when you made these inquiries?

          19          A.    No.

          20          Q.    What was you conversation with Murphy,

          21     to the best of your knowledge?

          22          A.    First of all, they weren't inquiries.

          23     I didn't make inquiries to him.  I told him what I

          24     had heard.

          25          Q.    What did you tell him?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    I told him that people were talking

           3     about him and Niki having a relationship.

           4          Q.    Is this prior to Leo Vallee leaving in

           5     the end of 2001?

           6          A.    I don't remember.

           7          Q.    You have no specific recollection that

           8     your conversations with Murphy about rumors

           9     predated Vallee leaving NYCERS?

          10          A.    No.

          11          Q.    It is likely it is after Vallee left

          12     NYCERS?

          13          A.    I don't recall.

          14          Q.    What was your conversation with Murphy

          15     on these occasions?

          16          A.    I would go in his office.  I would tell

          17     him that I had heard rumors.

          18          Q.    What did you say?

          19          A.    I would say people are talking; people

          20     are saying, you know, again, that you and Niki are

          21     having an affair and that would be it.

          22          Q.    What was his conversation with you?

          23          A.    Usually there was no response.

          24          Q.    Is that the sum and substance of what

          25     you told him in these conversations?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Yes.

           3          Q.    You never said to him, if you're having

           4     such a relationship, it would be in violation of

           5     any regulation or rule; you never told him that?

           6          A.    No.

           7                MS. CARROLL:  We will mark a memorandum

           8          dated December 9, 2002 as Mazza Exhibit 2.

           9                (Mazza Exhibit 2, memorandum dated

          10          December 9, 2002, marked for identification,

          11          as of this date.)

          12          Q.    The penultimate paragraph of the memo

          13     says, finally, romantic relationships are strictly

          14     in violation of the code.

          15                What code are you referring to?

          16          A.    I don't remember.

          17          Q.    In fact, the code that defines the

          18     organization of the conflicts of interest board

          19     does not specify any prohibition against romantic

          20     relationships by city employees, right?

          21          A.    I have to reread COIB.

          22          Q.    At this point you don't know.

          23          A.    Correct.

          24          Q.    Prior to the anonymous letter

          25     specifying the Murphy/Browne relationship during


           1                            Mazza

           2     your tenure at NYCERS as counsel, had there been

           3     occasions where there were employees who were

           4     having intimate relationships?

           5          A.    There were allegations.

           6          Q.    Did you make any recommendations

           7     regarding such allegations in your capacity as

           8     counsel, I mean?

           9          A.    I had discussions with Mr. Murphy and

          10     Mr. Aron, but I don't believe I had make

          11     recommendations.

          12                MR. MARKS:  What did these discussions

          13          entail?

          14                MS. CARROLL:  Off record.

          15                (Discussion off the record.)

          16                MS. CARROLL:  I will reframe the

          17          question.

          18          Q.    Did you ever prepare any guidelines for

          19     employees that treated this issue of intimate

          20     relationships between subordinates and superiors?

          21          A.    Written guidelines?

          22          Q.    Yes.

          23          A.    No.

          24          Q.    Did you ever give any training on the

          25     issue?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Myself?

           3          Q.    Yes.

           4          A.    No.

           5          Q.    This is legal issues?

           6          A.    Did I give training?  No.

           7          Q.    Did you prepare materials for training?

           8          A.    No.

           9          Q.    I mean the attachment to Exhibit 2

          10     talks about legal realities, superior subordinate

          11     relationships.

          12                My question to you is, at any time did

          13     you ever prepare guidelines in this matter for

          14     NYCERS?

          15          A.    No.

          16          Q.    We have marked Exhibit B to the Murphy

          17     deposition D 0100 which I will give you in a

          18     moment to look at.  Have you had an opportunity to

          19     read the document?

          20          A.    Yes.

          21          Q.    Did you prepare the portion of this

          22     document that is denominated section H?

          23          A.    Section H?

          24          Q.    Yes, H.

          25          A.    I don't think I wrote this.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    Did you ever give any training, prepare

           3     any guidelines or take any action as counsel for

           4     NYCERS in furtherance of explaining the import of

           5     section 8 of Exhibit 2?

           6          A.    I did not do training in this.

           7          Q.    Is there anywhere defined, to your

           8     knowledge, in the NYCERS handbook the meaning of

           9     this term used in the last sentence romantic

          10     relationships?

          11          A.    Is it defined in the handbook?  I don't

          12     know.  I don't have the handbook in front of me.

          13     I don't know.

          14          Q.    You never wrote any such definition in

          15     your capacity as counsel, I take it?

          16          A.    Correct.

          17          Q.    Do you know whether or not section H of

          18     Exhibit 2 to the Murphy deposition was ever

          19     reviewed by the law department?

          20          A.    I don't know.

          21          Q.    Do you have any knowledge of how

          22     section H was prepared, by whom, the

          23     circumstances, anything to that effect?

          24          A.    I believe -- to the best of my

          25     recollection, the employee handbook was written by


           1                            Mazza

           2     human resources department in NYCERS and was

           3     reviewed by the directors and the executive

           4     director.

           5          Q.    What is the basis of your statement?

           6          A.    Because human resources is the one who

           7     was responsible for the document, for the employee

           8     handbook.

           9          Q.    Do you know the date that H was

          10     prepared?

          11          A.    No.

          12          Q.    Do you know whether or not it preceded

          13     you as counsel?

          14          A.    We didn't have an employee handbook

          15     before I was counsel.

          16          Q.    Then you know the answer that it didn't

          17     precede you?

          18          A.    Correct.

          19          Q.    The people that were in charge of HR

          20     were not lawyers at NYCERS?

          21          A.    Correct.

          22          Q.    You're saying that the HR people

          23     prepared this; that you had no input as the NYCERS

          24     lawyer in reviewing H?

          25          A.    That is not what I said.  What I said


           1                            Mazza

           2     was that the employee handbook was written by the

           3     human resource department.

           4          Q.    I asked you, did you have any role in

           5     reviewing the section.

           6          A.    I reviewed the whole employee handbook,

           7     not just H.

           8          Q.    I reviewed the whole employee handbook.

           9                Did you provide any sort of legal

          10     guidance with respect to the matters in H?

          11          A.    I don't understand what you mean.

          12          Q.    Do you know whether it corresponded

          13     with any citywide standards reviewed by the law

          14     department or otherwise for employment of

          15     relatives in city government?

          16                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          17                You can answer.

          18          A.    It was NYCERS policies, not citywide

          19     policies.

          20          Q.    I understand that.  NYCERS is part of

          21     the City of New York.

          22          A.    Yes.

          23          Q.    The law department is the counsel for

          24     the City of New York?

          25          A.    Yes.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    My question to you is, did you take any

           3     steps to insure that this statement was consistent

           4     with citywide legal policy on the employment of

           5     relatives?

           6                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

           7                You can answer.

           8          A.    No.

           9          Q.    The statement in Exhibit 2 is that

          10     romantic relations are strictly in violation of

          11     the code.  You don't know, as a matter of fact,

          12     whether that statement is accurate or inaccurate,

          13     right?

          14          A.    Right.

          15          Q.    With respect to romantic relationships

          16     at NYCERS, what action, if any, was taken by you,

          17     and advice is an action -- advice is an action

          18     taken by a lawyer -- to counsel Mr. Murphy,

          19     Mr. Aron or anyone regarding how such

          20     relationships should be dealt with from the

          21     personnel perspective?

          22                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.  You

          23          can answer.

          24                To the extent that you're asking her

          25          for the substance of any legal advice she


           1                            Mazza

           2          provided to anybody at NYCERS, I object on the

           3          grounds protected by attorney-client

           4          privilege.

           5                MS. CARROLL:  Read it back.

           6                (Record read.)

           7                MS. CARROLL:  Take out by you and legal

           8          advice.

           9          Q.    What action was taken when this issue

          10     came up with respect to employees at NYCERS?

          11                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          12                MS. CARROLL:  I need to take a break.

          13                (Recess taken.)

          14          A.    When I heard allegations, I would

          15     discuss them with Mr. Murphy.

          16          Q.    Was there any action taken like

          17     reassignment or cautionary memo to the subject or

          18     any other personnel action?

          19          A.    No.

          20          Q.    Prior to June 1, 2004, what was

          21     Androniki Browne's reputation at NYCERS?

          22          A.    She had a very good reputation.

          23          Q.    Prior to June 1, 2004, did you ever

          24     personally observe any favoritism shown towards

          25     Browne by Murphy with respect to raises or


           1                            Mazza

           2     promotions?

           3          A.    I am not involved in raises or

           4     promotions.

           5          Q.    So the answer is no?

           6          A.    I didn't observe it because I am not

           7     involved in it.

           8          Q.    You have no information or knowledge

           9     that any favoritism was shown by Murphy towards

          10     Browne with respect to raises and promotions?

          11          A.    No, because I am not involved and

          12     involved in promotions and raises.

          13          Q.    Do you have any knowledge that Browne

          14     wasn't qualified for promotions and raises that

          15     she received on or before June 1, 204?

          16          A.    I don't know what her qualifications

          17     were.  I don't know what her job qualifications

          18     were because I wasn't involved.

          19          Q.    The answer is you don't know; you have

          20     no knowledge or information.

          21                Did there come a time, to your

          22     knowledge, that Ms. Barnett was transferred from

          23     HR?

          24          A.    Yes.

          25          Q.    At that time was a woman named Patrice


           1                            Mazza

           2     Barnett the HR director?

           3          A.    Yes.

           4          Q.    Did you have any discussion with Murphy

           5     regarding the removal of Barnett as HR director?

           6          A.    Yes.

           7          Q.    Did you recall Mr. Murphy making you

           8     aware of a memorandum prepared with respect to a

           9     subordinate named Kisha Shrouder?

          10          A.    Yes.

          11          Q.    Do you remember advising Mr. Murphy

          12     that his action to remove Barnett was no problem

          13     from your perspective?

          14          A.    No.

          15          Q.    What do you recall about your

          16     discussion with Murphy about that matter?

          17          A.    I don't recall a discussion.

          18          Q.    I take it at no time did you tell

          19     Mr. Murphy that there was any legal impediment to

          20     removing Barnett as HR director.

          21                Did you ever tell Murphy not to remove

          22     Barnett as HR director?

          23          A.    No.

          24          Q.    You had discussions with him in which

          25     Mr. Murphy indicated the basis of his removal of


           1                            Mazza

           2     Barnett; is that right?

           3          A.    Yes.

           4          Q.    Did you have the opinion that Barnett

           5     was not a "good fit" as a HR director?

           6          A.    Yes.

           7          Q.    What was the basis of that impression?

           8          A.    Having worked with her over the years

           9     at NYCERS.

          10          Q.    Why in your estimation was Barnett not

          11     a good fit as HR director?

          12          A.    I think Patrice's personality was not

          13     what you would want in a human resource director.

          14          Q.    Would your impression include the

          15     conclusion that she was off putting; she did not

          16     make HR seem like a place where you could readily

          17     go and speak with her?

          18          A.    I would say Patrice was not a warm

          19     person.

          20          Q.    Did she have problems communicating

          21     with people?

          22          A.    I can only speak for myself.  She

          23     communicated fine with me.

          24          Q.    What about in her function as an HR

          25     director; what were the problems she exhibited, to


           1                            Mazza

           2     your knowledge?

           3          A.    I don't think she was particularly warm

           4     and open to people which is what I think human

           5     resources is supposed to be.

           6          Q.    Did you observe mood swings in how she

           7     dealt with people?

           8          A.    Yes.

           9          Q.    You, in fact, read the memorandum that

          10     Barnett read to Kisha Shrouder and the responsive

          11     memo that Shrouder provided to Mr. Murphy

          12     regarding the same subject, right?

          13          A.    Yes.

          14          Q.    Would it be fair to say that the

          15     Barnett memo was intemperate and not previously

          16     documented with respect to the alleged personal

          17     failings of Ms. Shrouder?

          18          A.    To the best of my recollection, I

          19     believe that Kisha had good reviews prior to

          20     Patrice's memo and that Patrice's memo was the

          21     opposite of that.

          22          Q.    The removal of Barnett by Murphy

          23     occurred at or about the time of the Shrouder

          24     memos?

          25          A.    Subsequent to the Shrouder memos, yes.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    To your knowledge, there is no

           3     connection between the Browne/Murphy relationship

           4     and removal of Barnett as HR director?

           5          A.    I don't know.

           6          Q.    So you have no knowledge?

           7          A.    I don't know.

           8          Q.    Did you have any role in the decision

           9     to have Browne become the deputy director of

          10     membership after --

          11          A.    No.

          12          Q.    Let me finish.

          13                MS. CARROLL:  Off the record.

          14                (Off the record discussion.)

          15          Q.    When you had the meeting about the

          16     memos, Mr. Valle was involved in that discussion,

          17     right?

          18          A.    I don't remember.

          19          Q.    Do you have any evidence about removal

          20     of Barnett was not proper?

          21          A.    Any evidence?

          22          Q.    Yes.

          23          A.    No.

          24          Q.    Were you a friend of Felita Baksh?

          25          A.    No.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    When did you first know the name Felita

           3     Baksh?

           4          A.    When she was first hired at NYCERS -- I

           5     don't know when that was.

           6          Q.    That is when she was working for

           7     Barnett with Browne in HR?

           8          A.    Yes.

           9          Q.    That would go back to the '90's?

          10          A.    Yes -- I don't know.  I said yes and I

          11     don't know what year it was.

          12          Q.    Did you have lunch with her during the

          13     time she worked at HR?

          14          A.    I don't remember.

          15          Q.    Did you ever have lunch with her?

          16          A.    I couldn't say yes or no.  I don't

          17     remember.

          18          Q.    What contact would you have had with

          19     her in her capacity at HR, if any?

          20          A.    At NYCERS?

          21          Q.    Yes.

          22          A.    Legal works with HR quite a bit, so it

          23     would be in relationship to disciplinary

          24     proceedings or in relation to hiring issues or any

          25     number of legal issues that might come in human


           1                            Mazza

           2     resources.

           3          Q.    You knew her when she left NYCERS and

           4     went to the fire department too?

           5          A.    Did I know her?  Yes.

           6          Q.    I mean in the same context as you would

           7     have had professional contact with her.

           8          A.    Yes.

           9          Q.    With what frequency?

          10          A.    Relatively infrequent.

          11          Q.    There is an allegation in the June 1

          12     letter that accuses you of revising the resume of

          13     Felita Baksh when she applied for the position of

          14     HR director at NYCERS, right?  You have read that?

          15          A.    Yes.

          16          Q.    In fact, you did take some action with

          17     respect to her resume, right?

          18          A.    Yes.

          19          Q.    Whatever action you took with respect

          20     to the editing or revision of the Baksh resume,

          21     you did because of whatever your relationship with

          22     her was, right?

          23                I mean, it wasn't a legal duty of you

          24     to do this as part of counsel.

          25          A.    No.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    It had to be a relationship, whether

           3     you call it friend or whatever, that was the

           4     premise upon which it was done, right?

           5          A.    Yes, professional relationship.

           6          Q.    I will show you what has been marked as

           7     Exhibit 2 to the Defreitas deposition.  It is 0A

           8     22.  It is an E-mail from Baksh to Browne which

           9     says my resume is attached.  I would appreciate

          10     you looking at it.

          11                That memo was forwarded to you as well;

          12     isn't that right?  You got the resume and the

          13     request to look at it.

          14          A.    It was forwarded to me by Niki Browne.

          15          Q.    Did you receive a cover letter

          16     additional to the resume?

          17          A.    I don't remember.

          18          Q.    Do you have any recollection of editing

          19     anything other than the resume?

          20          A.    I don't remember.

          21          Q.    If Baksh testified that you revised her

          22     cover letter to the resume, as you sit here now,

          23     you can't dispute that one way or the other; you

          24     just don't remember?

          25          A.    I just don't remember.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    You remember there was a cover letter?

           3          A.    No.

           4          Q.    When you received the resume as per

           5     Exhibit 2, you he edited the resume and sent it

           6     back to Baksh; is that right?

           7          A.    I made suggestions for changes on it

           8     and I don't know if I sent it back to Felita or I

           9     sent it to Niki.

          10          Q.    When you say you made recommendations

          11     for changes, you testified that you, in fact,

          12     moved parts of the resume around and took other

          13     action with respect to it; isn't that right?

          14          A.    I don't think that is what I said.

          15          Q.    Do you have a recollection --

          16          A.    I believe I made suggestions to move

          17     things around.  I didn't move things around.

          18          Q.    When you say you made suggestions, how

          19     did that occur; what form?  You wrote something?

          20          A.    Yes.

          21          Q.    That was on a page of paper or in an

          22     E-mail separate from the body of the resume

          23     itself?

          24          A.    I think I did it in the resume itself.

          25          Q.    How?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    When you do tracking in Word.

           3          Q.    What does that mean?

           4          A.    It would show what I had add -- to the

           5     best of my recollection, I didn't change the

           6     resume.  I wrote things like I would move this

           7     forward.

           8          Q.    You sent that to Baksh?

           9          A.    I don't remember if I sent that to

          10     Baksh or Browne.

          11          Q.    It is a fact, is it not, that the

          12     E-mail trail that would indicate what you

          13     specifically did with the Baksh resume and to whom

          14     you forwarded you deleted; isn't that right?

          15          A.    Yes.

          16          Q.    Is there any written policy of the City

          17     of New York or NYCERS that you relied upon in

          18     deleting the Baksh memos --

          19          A.    No.

          20          Q.    -- E-mails?

          21          A.    No.

          22          Q.    There was no written policies of NYCERS

          23     or the city that you relied upon?

          24          A.    Yes.

          25          Q.    You just deleted it on your own?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Yes.

           3          Q.    Did you ever discuss with Mr. Murphy

           4     your decision to delete these E-mails?

           5          A.    No.

           6          Q.    When did you delete these E-mails?

           7          A.    I don't know.

           8          Q.    It is a fact, is it not, that you

           9     deleted the E-mails regarding the Baksh memos

          10     subsequent to June 1, 2004?

          11          A.    No.

          12          Q.    It is not?

          13          A.    No -- you're asking if it is a fact?

          14          Q.    Isn't it a fact that you deleted

          15     Baksh's resume E-mails subsequent to June 1, 2004?

          16          A.    I don't remember when I deleted Baksh's

          17     resume E-mails.

          18          Q.    So it could have been after June 1,

          19     2004; you just don't remember?

          20          A.    I don't remember when I deleted them.

          21          Q.    So the answer is yes, it could have

          22     been?

          23          A.    Yes, it could have been.

          24          Q.    There came a time, in fact, when you

          25     sat on a panel that was reviewing the applications


           1                            Mazza

           2     of candidates for the NYCERS HR position, correct?

           3          A.    Yes.

           4          Q.    At the time that you sat on the panel,

           5     you did not advise any of the panel members that

           6     you had taken action with respect to the Baksh

           7     resume?

           8          A.    No.

           9          Q.    You did tell them?

          10          A.    No.

          11          Q.    The E-mails that you deleted regarding

          12     the Baksh resume, did you maintain a hard copy?

          13          A.    No.

          14          Q.    Is there a back-up tape that would

          15     maintain the E-mails that you deleted?

          16          A.    No.

          17          Q.    How do you know that?

          18          A.    Because we asked for the IT people to

          19     look for it.

          20          Q.    When you say we, who is we?

          21          A.    Actually DOI asked.

          22          Q.    Who did they ask?

          23          A.    Kin Mak.

          24          Q.    They asked him through you, didn't

          25     they?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    No.

           3          Q.    There was no correspondence between you

           4     and DeFreitas disregarding the E-mail deletion

           5     issue.

           6          A.    There may have been.  I don't remember.

           7     I know she communicated directly with Kin.

           8          Q.    At any time did you ever advise any of

           9     the trustees that you had deleted the E-mails

          10     which memorialized your role in the revision of

          11     the Baksh resume?

          12          A.    No.

          13          Q.    To this day, the trustees don't know

          14     that you, in fact, deleted memos which would

          15     detail your role in the revision of the Baksh

          16     resume, right?

          17          A.    Read that back.

          18                MS. CARROLL:  Read it back, please.

          19                (Record read.)

          20          A.    I don't know what the trustees know.

          21          Q.    But you never told them to this day?

          22          A.    Correct.

          23          Q.    When you say we asked the IT people to

          24     follow up on deleted E-mails and then you

          25     corrected your answer, did you indicate that the


           1                            Mazza

           2     fire department would have your deleted E-mails?

           3                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

           4          A.    I don't know what the fire department

           5     has.

           6          Q.    Baksh was at the fire department when

           7     these E-mails were initiated, correct?

           8          A.    Yes.

           9          Q.    You know that the fire department has

          10     an E-mail system because you participated in it,

          11     right?

          12                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          13          Q.    Did you take any steps to retrieve from

          14     the fire department the E-mails that you deleted

          15     regarding the Baksh resume?

          16          A.    Did I?  No.

          17          Q.    Did you suggest any such action to DOI?

          18          A.    No.

          19          Q.    Did you have any contact with Baksh

          20     additional to the revision of the resume you

          21     testified to at any time prior to her selection as

          22     HR director?

          23          A.    I don't believe so.

          24          Q.    Who is Jodi Nagel?

          25          A.    She was my deputy counsel.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    Did you discuss with Ms. Nagel the

           3     deletion of the E-mails?

           4          A.    I don't remember.

           5          Q.    Was she involved in the discussion with

           6     yourself and Mr. Kin Mak regarding retrieving the

           7     deleted E-mails?

           8          A.    I don't remember.

           9          Q.    We are talking about 2004, right?  We

          10     are not talking about ancient history.

          11                Is it your testimony that you have no

          12     recollection --

          13                MR. MARKS:  Objection.  That is not --

          14          Q.    Did you discuss --

          15          A.    I don't know what the question is.

          16          Q.    The question is, is it your testimony

          17     that you have no recollection whatsoever if you

          18     discussed the issue of your deletion of E-mails

          19     and their retrieval with Ms. Jodi Nagel?

          20          A.    I don't remember.

          21          Q.    Is she still your deputy counsel?

          22          A.    No.

          23          Q.    Did she resign or something else?

          24          A.    Yes.

          25          Q.    Did she resign?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Yes.

           3          Q.    When was that?

           4          A.    Two weeks ago.

           5          Q.    You were called down to testify

           6     regarding the allegations in the June 1 letter at

           7     DOI on July 1, 2004, right?

           8          A.    Yes.

           9          Q.    At that interview on July 13, 2004, did

          10     you tell the trustees that you had deleted the

          11     E-mails regarding your actions in revising the

          12     Baksh memo?

          13                MR. MARKS:  You said did you tell the

          14          trustees.

          15          Q.    Did you tell the DOI investigators?

          16     Sorry.

          17                MS. CARROLL:  Read back the question.

          18                (Record read.)

          19                MS. CARROLL:  Change trustees to DOI

          20          investigators.

          21                Read it back again.

          22                (Record read.)

          23          Q.    What is the answer?

          24          A.    I am looking at the transcript because

          25     I don't remember what I told them.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    Do you have any current recollection

           3     that you advised the DOI investigators that you

           4     had deleted the Baksh revision E-mails?

           5          A.    No, I don't have any recollection.

           6          Q.    We have had marked as Exhibit 23 to the

           7     DeFreitas deposition 0745, a summary of a

           8     conversation in which it appears that you advised

           9     DOI on that date, July 22, 2004, that you had

          10     deleted the Baksh resume E-mails.

          11                Do you see that?

          12          A.    Yes.

          13          Q.    Does this refresh your recollection

          14     that your first statement to DOI about revising

          15     the Baksh resumes was subsequent to your testimony

          16     on July 13, 2004?

          17                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          18                You mean about deleting E-mails?

          19                Have your question read back.

          20                MS. CARROLL:  Read it back.

          21                (Record read.)

          22          Q.    You have looked at Exhibit 23?

          23          A.    Yes.

          24          Q.    It is a fact, is it not, that July 22,

          25     2004 is the first time you tell DOI that you


           1                            Mazza

           2     deleted the Baksh resumes that indicate your

           3     actions with respect to that resume?

           4                MR. MARKS:  The E-mails.

           5                MS. CARROLL:  Yes.

           6          A.    Yes.

           7          Q.    You never mention the E-mail deletion

           8     prior to July 22, 2004 to DOI, right?

           9          A.    No.

          10          Q.    That is correct?

          11          A.    That is correct.

          12                MS. CARROLL:  Mark this E-mail dated

          13          7/29/04 as Mazza Exhibit 3.

          14                (Mazza Exhibit 3, E-mail dated 7/29/04,

          15          marked for identification, as of this date.)

          16          Q.    I will direct your attention to the

          17     upper part of the memo.

          18                What do you mean you're uncomfortable

          19     if anybody in-house asks to see your deleted

          20     E-mails; uncomfortable about what?

          21          A.    I wanted to know if anybody else was

          22     asking to look at those deleted E-mails.

          23          Q.    That wasn't my question.  I understand

          24     that.  That is what it says.  My question to you

          25     is, why were you uncomfortable about this


           1                            Mazza

           2     information being recoverable, the deleted

           3     E-mails?

           4                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

           5          A.    I wasn't uncomfortable with it being

           6     recoverable.  I was uncomfortable with other

           7     people asking to see it.

           8          Q.    I am reading what you wrote.  "I am

           9     somewhat uncomfortable with this info being

          10     recoverable."  That is not my words.  That is what

          11     it says here.

          12                My question is, when you wrote this,

          13     why did you say that?  What were you uncomfortable

          14     with about having this information, that is the

          15     deleted E-mails, being recoverable?

          16                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          17          A.    That is not -- what I wrote is not what

          18     I meant.  When I say recoverable, I meant being

          19     seen by somebody else.

          20          Q.    Well, you couldn't see it if it wasn't

          21     recovered.

          22          A.    Right.

          23          Q.    Why were you uncomfortable that the

          24     E-mails that you had deleted would be seen by

          25     somebody else "in-house"?  Why?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    My purpose in writing that paragraph

           3     was, we were in the middle of a DOI investigation

           4     and I wanted to know if anybody else was asking

           5     Kin to show them my deleted E-mails.

           6          Q.    You're not answering my question.

           7                I asked you, using your own words, why

           8     were you uncomfortable with this information being

           9     recoverable.  I am asking you why.

          10          A.    I answered you and said that --

          11          Q.    No, you haven't answered me.  Why were

          12     you uncomfortable; because it would show that you

          13     doctored a resume?

          14          A.    No.

          15          Q.    Why were you uncomfortable; because you

          16     deleted E-mails and it related to a subject that

          17     you were sitting on a panel?

          18          A.    What I said to you in my answer

          19     previously was that what I wrote is not what I

          20     meant.

          21          Q.    You're a lawyer, Ms. Mazza.  The trade

          22     of a lawyer is the usage of words.  I want to

          23     know, what did you mean when you used the words, I

          24     am somewhat uncomfortable with this information

          25     being recoverable?  At that time, what did you


           1                            Mazza

           2     mean?

           3                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

           4          Q.    What did you mean?

           5          A.    What I meant was, I want to know if

           6     Mr. Murphy was asking to see my deleted E-mails.

           7     That is what I meant.

           8          Q.    Did you tell DeFreitas or Kin Mak or

           9     anybody that you were concerned that Mr. Murphy

          10     would see your deleted E-mails?

          11          A.    No.

          12          Q.    Why Mr. Murphy?

          13          A.    Because we were in the middle of a DOI

          14     investigation.

          15          Q.    Why shouldn't DOI get the deleted

          16     E-mails regarding the allegation that you doctored

          17     the Baksh resume?

          18          A.    I didn't say DOI shouldn't get the

          19     E-mails.

          20          Q.    Well, they couldn't get them because

          21     you deleted them, right?

          22                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          23          Q.    Isn't that right; DOI couldn't get the

          24     E-mails regarding the Baksh resume because you

          25     deleted them, right?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Correct.

           3          Q.    There was an effort to try to retrieve

           4     the deleted E-mails, isn't that right?  DOI was

           5     trying to retrieve them?

           6          A.    Yes.

           7          Q.    In fact, your testimony that there was

           8     no back-up tapes, that is incorrect; isn't that

           9     right?

          10                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          11          A.    There are back-up tapes but only for a

          12     certain amount of time.

          13          Q.    The statement that there were no

          14     back-up tapes is inaccurate?

          15                MR. MARKS:  That is not what she

          16          testified to.  You asked whether she testified

          17          there were back-up tapes on which the E-mail

          18          tapes would be on, not whether the agency has

          19          any back-up tapes, period.

          20                MS. CARROLL:  We will go back over it.

          21          Q.    At or about the time that the inquiry

          22     was being made by DOI, there were back-up tapes

          23     for E-mails; isn't that right?

          24          A.    Yes.

          25          Q.    In fact, there were back-up tapes for


           1                            Mazza

           2     E-mails going back a year; isn't that right?

           3          A.    That, I don't know.

           4          Q.    Then you can't give testimony that

           5     there weren't, right?  There is a difference

           6     between if you know a thing or you're guessing.

           7                In 2004, whether or not there were

           8     back-up tapes for the E-mails you deleted, your

           9     testimony is that you don't know, right?

          10                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          11          A.    I know there were not because when they

          12     tried to find them, they couldn't find them.

          13          Q.    How do you know that?  How do you know

          14     that they couldn't find them?

          15          A.    Because I was told by DOI.

          16          Q.    Who told you in DOI that Kin Mak could

          17     not get back-up tapes for your deleted E-mails?

          18          A.    I don't remember.

          19          Q.    Did you have contact with somebody

          20     other than DeFreitas during the course of the

          21     investigation of the allegation against you

          22     regarding the revision of the Baksh resume?

          23          A.    There was Alberta Ancrum also working

          24     on that case.

          25          Q.    Anybody else?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Vinnie Green was also working on the

           3     case.

           4          Q.    Did you have conversation with any of

           5     those people, Ancrum, Green or DeFreitas,

           6     regarding the matter of whether there were back-up

           7     tapes for the deleted E-mails?

           8          A.    Someone from DOI told me they could not

           9     recover the E-mails.

          10          Q.    They told you this verbally or in an

          11     E-mail?

          12          A.    I believe it was verbally.

          13          Q.    You're the subject of one of the

          14     allegations, right?

          15          A.    Yes.

          16          Q.    Your testimony is that you deleted

          17     E-mails regarding the revision of the Baksh

          18     resume, right?

          19          A.    Yes.

          20          Q.    You're telling me that with respect to

          21     the issue of whether there were back-up tapes

          22     which would produce the E-mails that documented

          23     what, in fact, you did, DOI tells you, the

          24     subject, that the back-up tapes don't exist?

          25          A.    Yes.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    Did DOI also tell you whoever it was of

           3     these three, Ancrum, Green or DeFreitas, that they

           4     couldn't obtain the deleted E-mails from the fire

           5     department E-mail system?

           6          A.    No.

           7                MR. MARKS:  I will let you go on with

           8          this questioning --

           9                MS. CARROLL:  We are getting to it --

          10                MR. MARKS:  This is a case brought by

          11          Mr. Murphy concerning defamation.

          12                MS. CARROLL:  This is very much into

          13          the legally being a reckless disregard for the

          14          truth.

          15          Q.    Why were you concerned that Mr. Murphy

          16     would have access to the deleted E-mails if the

          17     back-up was discovered, the back-up files?

          18          A.    I was just concerned.

          19          Q.    It is a fact, is it not, that you at no

          20     time during the interview process for HR director

          21     told Mr. Murphy that you had revised Baksh's

          22     resume?

          23          A.    I didn't tell Mr. Murphy that I had

          24     been asked to look at Felita's suggestions for --

          25          Q.    You tracked things and moved things


           1                            Mazza

           2     around, right?

           3                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

           4          A.    I didn't move things around.  I made

           5     suggestions about what --

           6          Q.    -- for moving things around.

           7          A.    Correct.

           8          Q.    When you testified at DOI, you

           9     testified that you didn't know whether or not

          10     Baksh had, in fact, adopted your suggestions;

          11     isn't that right?

          12          A.    Yes.

          13          Q.    But, in fact, you had as a member of

          14     the panel the Baksh resume that she submitted for

          15     the position, right?

          16          A.    Yes.

          17          Q.    By reference to the E-mails that you

          18     had which included the original resume and the

          19     resume that she submitted to the panel, you in

          20     fact uniquely did have access to the information

          21     that would answer that question?

          22                MR. MARKS:  Objection to form.

          23          A.    If I still had the E-mail in my E-mail

          24     box.

          25          Q.    There is no question, Ms. Mazza, that


           1                            Mazza

           2     as of the time of the interview which was only a

           3     brief period after you received the E-mail from

           4     Browne that you still had the Baksh-related

           5     E-mails, right?  Isn't that right?

           6          A.    I may have.

           7          Q.    The date of Exhibit 22 to the DeFreitas

           8     deposition is dated January 28, 2004.  This is

           9     from Baksh to Browne which gets forwarded to you,

          10     right?

          11          A.    Yes.

          12          Q.    This E-mail existed at the time that

          13     Baksh was, in fact, interviewed, isn't that

          14     correct?  You didn't delete the E-mails between

          15     January of 2004 and the date of the interviews?

          16          A.    I don't know when I deleted the

          17     E-mails.

          18          Q.    You have no recollection that it

          19     postdated the actual interview by Baksh?

          20          A.    I don't know when I deleted the

          21     E-mails.

          22          Q.    Did you talk to the NYCERS trustees or

          23     anybody else at NYCERS about these tapes, the

          24     back-up tapes for the E-mails?

          25          A.    No.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    You said Jodi Nagel resigned.

           3                Was she on maternity leave?

           4          A.    Yes.

           5          Q.    Did she have to resign because she was

           6     on maternity leave?

           7          A.    It was just something Ms. Nagel, now

           8     Mrs. Rodman, decided to stay home and be a

           9     stay-at-home mom.

          10          Q.    Subsequent to your interview at DOI,

          11     did you have any contact with any of the trustees

          12     regarding the investigation?  And I include

          13     Bratcher in this question.

          14          A.    I don't remember.

          15          Q.    Did you speak with Ms. Stark regarding

          16     the matter?

          17          A.    I don't remember.

          18          Q.    Did you send any E-mails to anyone

          19     additional to DeFreitas regarding the

          20     investigation of the allegations in the anonymous

          21     letter?

          22          A.    I don't remember.

          23          Q.    In addition to the E-mails concerning

          24     the Baksh resume, did you delete other E-mails?

          25          A.    I am sorry.  Say that again.


           1                            Mazza

           2                MS. CARROLL:  Read it back.

           3                (Record read.)

           4          A.    Oh, yes.

           5          Q.    Did you ever speak with Musaraca

           6     subsequent to the time that you testified at DOI?

           7          A.    I speak to Mr. Musaraca frequently.

           8          Q.    That is a silly question.  Sorry.

           9                Prior to the DOI report coming out and

          10     subsequent to your testimony, did you speak to

          11     Musaraca?

          12          A.    Mr. Musaraca, yes.  He is one of my

          13     trustees.

          14          Q.    Did you speak to him about the

          15     investigation of the anonymous letter at any time

          16     between July 13, 2004 and March 1, 2005 when the

          17     DOI report came out?

          18          A.    I don't remember.

          19          Q.    Did you ever have any conversation with

          20     him about the allegations against you subsequent

          21     to testifying and prior to the DOI report?

          22          A.    I really don't remember.

          23          Q.    What about E-mails?

          24          A.    I really don't remember.

          25          Q.    Would you have your E-mails from that


           1                            Mazza

           2     period?

           3          A.    No.

           4          Q.    You destroyed all the E-mails?

           5                MR. MARKS:  Objection.

           6          A.    Yes.

           7          Q.    Is there any back-up name for them?

           8          A.    I don't know.

           9          Q.    When did you first see the DOI report

          10     on the allegations raised in the June 1 anonymous

          11     letter?

          12          A.    The day of the trustees meeting.

          13          Q.    At the trustees meeting?

          14          A.    No.

          15          Q.    What were the circumstances?

          16          A.    A copy of it was left in my office.

          17          Q.    By whom?

          18          A.    I have no idea.

          19          Q.    When?

          20          A.    The morning of the trustees meeting.

          21          Q.    Prior to the meeting?

          22          A.    Yes.

          23          Q.    Without any indication as to who left

          24     it there?

          25          A.    It was on my chair.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    I want to make sure I have this exactly

           3     correct.

           4                On March 1, 2005, there is a DOI

           5     report.  The records in this case indicate that

           6     there was a meeting on March 10, 2005 on that

           7     report.  It is your testimony that on the morning

           8     of March 10, 2005, there is a copy of the DOI

           9     report on your chair?

          10          A.    Yes.

          11          Q.    Did you have any conversation with any

          12     of the trustees prior to March 10, 2005 regarding

          13     the fact that that there was a DOI report?

          14          A.    I don't remember.

          15          Q.    When you saw this DOI report on your

          16     chair on March 10, did you know prior to that that

          17     there had been a determination by DOI?

          18          A.    I think so.

          19          Q.    How did you first find out there was a

          20     DOI determination on the allegations raised in the

          21     June 1 anonymous letter?

          22          A.    I know I spoke to Vinnie Green that

          23     week, in that time period.  He told me they were

          24     coming out with a report, but I don't remember

          25     when it was.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    Did he tell you what the conclusion

           3     was?

           4          A.    He told me they were referring the

           5     allegation regarding me to COIB.

           6          Q.    Vinnie Green is Vincent Green?

           7          A.    Yes.

           8          Q.    He called you or you called him?

           9          A.    He called me.

          10          Q.    You were a subject of the

          11     investigation.

          12                Why was he speaking to you?

          13                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          14          Q.    Before the report was issued.

          15          A.    I don't know.

          16          Q.    Do you have a personal relationship

          17     with him?

          18          A.    No.

          19          Q.    Well, you're a subject.  He is

          20     investigating you.

          21                Why did he tell you he was calling you

          22     about it?

          23                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          24          A.    I don't know why he called me.

          25          Q.    Did he tell you that there were


           1                            Mazza

           2     findings against Mr. Murphy in this conversation?

           3          A.    No.

           4          Q.    Was it one phone call or more?

           5          A.    One.

           6          Q.    When you got this phone call, what did

           7     you do with that information?

           8          A.    Nothing.

           9          Q.    You didn't tell Mr. Murphy?

          10          A.    No.

          11          Q.    Did you speak to any of the trustees

          12     about this?

          13          A.    No.

          14          Q.    Prior to the meeting on March 10, 2005

          15     in which the DOI findings are discussed, you know

          16     there is a letter.  You know that they are

          17     referring your part to COIB and you have no

          18     conversation with any trustees; is that right?

          19          A.    I don't -- no, I don't.

          20          Q.    Not with Bratcher, not with Stark?

          21          A.    No.

          22                MS. CARROLL:  Let's take a break.

          23                (Recess taken.)

          24          Q.    On the date of the March 10, 2005

          25     trustees meeting which considers, among other


           1                            Mazza

           2     things, the DOI report, were you there when DOI

           3     made its presentation?

           4          A.    No.

           5          Q.    Were you subsequently called in to the

           6     trustees meeting after DOI made its presentation?

           7          A.    Yes.

           8          Q.    Were you advised by the trustees then

           9     that DOI had made a finding regarding the

          10     allegations against you?

          11          A.    I don't think so.

          12          Q.    What were you told?

          13          A.    I don't think I was told anything --

          14     no.

          15          Q.    You weren't told anything one way or

          16     the other?

          17          A.    No.

          18          Q.    Was there any discussion with you by

          19     the trustees of the DOI report?

          20          A.    I don't remember, no.

          21          Q.    When you received on your chair the DOI

          22     letter, did you notify the trustees or Green or

          23     anybody of that fact?

          24          A.    No.

          25          Q.    You have been involved as counsel for


           1                            Mazza

           2     NYCERS with any prior DOI investigations?

           3          A.    Yes.

           4          Q.    Are the reports of the DOI confidential

           5     when they come to a final report?

           6          A.    I would think so.

           7          Q.    When you saw the DOI report on your

           8     chair, you knew that you should not have had a

           9     copy of that since it was a confidential report,

          10     right?

          11                MR. MARKS:  Objection.

          12          A.    No.

          13          Q.    Should you have had a copy?

          14          A.    I don't know.

          15          Q.    Isn't it a confidential report?

          16          A.    Yes.

          17          Q.    It is confidential and should have been

          18     provided solely to the trustees, right?

          19          A.    I don't know.

          20          Q.    You had no business getting a copy of

          21     the report since you were a subject, right?

          22          A.    I don't know that.

          23          Q.    Did you tell anybody about the content

          24     of the report that was left on your chair prior to

          25     the time of the March -- prior to the time it was


           1                            Mazza

           2     disclosed in the press?

           3                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

           4          A.    Did I tell anybody?

           5          Q.    Yes.

           6          A.    Yes.

           7          Q.    Who?

           8          A.    My husband.

           9          Q.    Anybody else?  Did you discuss it with

          10     Baksh or Browne or any employees or Mr. Aron?

          11          A.    I don't remember.  I can tell you I

          12     didn't discuss it with Ms. Browne.

          13          Q.    Once the DOI has made its presentation

          14     to the trustees, did any of the trustees discuss

          15     with you that the report was confidential?

          16          A.    No.

          17          Q.    Did they discuss anything about the

          18     report with you?

          19          A.    Not that I recall.

          20          Q.    Not Bratcher, not Musaraca?

          21          A.    Not that I recall.

          22          Q.    You have a copy of the DOI report on

          23     your chair.  Did you have any discussion with Mike

          24     Musaraca about what action the trustees would take

          25     on the DOI report?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    No.

           3          Q.    After the DOI made its presentation,

           4     when did you first become aware of any action that

           5     would be taken by the trustees on the findings

           6     made by DOI?

           7          A.    The next morning.

           8          Q.    How did that occur?

           9          A.    I was told by Ms. Browne in the

          10     executive pantry.

          11          Q.    You were told what?

          12          A.    I was told that they had asked Mr. --

          13     that Mr. Murphy had resigned.

          14          Q.    They had asked Mr. Murphy to resign?

          15          A.    I believe what she told me was that

          16     Mr. Murphy was resigning -- I don't remember what

          17     she told me, but essentially what she told me was

          18     that Mr. Murphy was leaving.

          19          Q.    The essence of this is critical to this

          20     case.  Do you have an exact sense of what

          21     Ms. Browne told you other than Murphy was leaving?

          22     Is there anything more that you specifically

          23     recall?

          24          A.    No.

          25          Q.    Murphy is leaving, but you don't know


           1                            Mazza

           2     from Browne why he is leaving; you don't know

           3     whether he is resigning or they are terminating

           4     him?

           5          A.    I don't recall what she said.

           6          Q.    It is correct that you don't know the

           7     circumstances?

           8          A.    Correct.

           9          Q.    With respect to yourself, did you ever

          10     get advised by the trustees that action would be

          11     taken against you because of the finding that you

          12     revised the Baksh memo?

          13          A.    That action would be taken by the

          14     trustees?

          15          Q.    Yes.  Against you.

          16          A.    I don't work directly for the trustees.

          17          Q.    My question obtains notwithstanding.

          18          A.    No.

          19          Q.    Were you advised by Mr. Aron or any

          20     other person that action would be taken against

          21     you by reason of the findings that DOI made that

          22     you had revised or participated in the revision of

          23     the Baksh memo?

          24          A.    Action would be taken by Mr. Aron?

          25          Q.    Or anyone at NYCERS against you for


           1                            Mazza

           2     your role in that matter.

           3          A.    I don't believe so.

           4          Q.    No action was ever taken against you,

           5     correct?

           6          A.    No.

           7          Q.    Did you discuss the DOI findings

           8     regarding your role in the Baksh resume revision

           9     with Mr. Aron?

          10          A.    I am sure I did.

          11          Q.    Mr. Aron became the acting director of

          12     NYCERS at some point in March of 2005 subsequent

          13     to the meeting of the trustees on the DOI letter,

          14     right?

          15          A.    Yes.

          16          Q.    Did you have a discussion with Mr. Aron

          17     subsequent to the DOI meeting regarding the

          18     findings against you in the DOI letter?

          19          A.    I am sure I must have.

          20          Q.    What did you say to him and what did he

          21     say to you?

          22          A.    I don't recall a specific meeting with

          23     him, but I am sure in his role as an acting

          24     executive director that we probably met on it.

          25          Q.    What is your recollection of what


           1                            Mazza

           2     occurred?

           3          A.    I really don't remember.

           4          Q.    Did Mr. Aron know about the deleted

           5     E-mails?

           6          A.    I don't know.

           7          Q.    Did you give Mr. Aron a copy of the DOI

           8     report?

           9          A.    No.

          10          Q.    You had a copy on your desk chair prior

          11     to the meeting.  You never gave a copy to

          12     Mr. Aron?

          13          A.    No.

          14          Q.    When you discussed with Mr. Aron the

          15     DOI finding subsequent to Aron becoming the

          16     executive director, did you indicate to him your

          17     deletion of the E-mails?

          18          A.    I don't remember.

          19          Q.    Do you have any calendar that you

          20     maintain as the department NYCERS lawyer?

          21          A.    I have a calendar, yes.

          22          Q.    In this calendar, do you record

          23     meetings?

          24          A.    Yes.

          25          Q.    Would the matter of your discussion of


           1                            Mazza

           2     the DOI report with Aron be in your calendar?

           3          A.    No.

           4          Q.    When you discussed the DOI report with

           5     Aron whenever that was, was he aware that there

           6     was a finding against you regarding the resume?

           7          A.    He was aware that DOI had referred the

           8     matter to COIB.

           9          Q.    Say that again.

          10          A.    He was aware that the matter had been

          11     referred to COIB.

          12          Q.    The matter that you had revised the

          13     Baksh resume?

          14          A.    Yes.

          15          Q.    But you don't know whether or not he

          16     had seen the DOI report?

          17          A.    No.

          18                MS. CARROLL:  Let's have marked for

          19          identification as Mazza Exhibit 4, a document

          20          Bates number D 0483 through 85.

          21                (Mazza Exhibit 4, Bates number D 0483

          22          through 85, marked for identification, as of

          23          this date.)

          24          Q.    Have you ever seen this document

          25     before?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Yes.

           3          Q.    Did you have any role in its

           4     preparation and writing?

           5          A.    I don't remember.

           6          Q.    Isn't it a fact that Mr. Aron consulted

           7     with you in preparing that letter?

           8                MR. MARKS:  You can answer that

           9          question.

          10          A.    Most likely in my role as general

          11     counsel he did.

          12          Q.    When you were speaking with Mr. Aron

          13     and became aware that he knew that the DOI finding

          14     against you was referred to COIB, did you come to

          15     any agreement with him regarding your continued

          16     status as counsel for NYCERS?

          17          A.    No.

          18          Q.    Did the matter come up of your losing

          19     your job because of the finding?

          20          A.    No.

          21          Q.    Mr. Aron knows that there is a finding

          22     against you; it is referred to COIB and there is

          23     in discussion between you and he about your

          24     removal as counsel?

          25                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    I don't think there was a finding.  I

           3     think it was referred to COIB to see if I had

           4     violated anything.

           5          Q.    There was a finding in the DOI letter

           6     that there had been a revision of the Baksh resume

           7     and that you were involved in that.

           8          A.    And it was referred to COIB to see if I

           9     had violated any -- whatever.

          10          Q.    It was additionally referred to COIB,

          11     that is correct, but there was a finding about

          12     your role with respect to the revision of the

          13     Baksh resume.

          14                My question is, did Aron ever indicate

          15     to you that he had reservations, concerns,

          16     anything in that regard as to your staying on

          17     board as counsel?

          18          A.    No.

          19          Q.    Do you have any knowledge that the

          20     reference to "these factual errors" on page 2 by

          21     Mr. Aron is incorrect?

          22                Do you understand the question?

          23          A.    No.

          24          Q.    Mr. Aron says that there are factual

          25     errors in the DOI report and specifies them in


           1                            Mazza

           2     paragraphs 1 through 4.  Do you see that?

           3          A.    Yes.

           4          Q.    Do you have any knowledge to dispute

           5     Mr. Aron's assertions in this letter?

           6          A.    Number one, I wasn't privy to because

           7     it is about his appearance at DOI.

           8          Q.    It is a yes or no question.

           9          A.    I guess I don't understand your

          10     question.

          11          Q.    Mr. Aron states that there are factual

          12     errors in the DOI report?

          13          A.    Yes.

          14          Q.    He specifies what those factual errors

          15     are?

          16          A.    Yes.

          17          Q.    In paragraphs 1 through 4?

          18          A.    Yes.

          19          Q.    My question to you is, do you have any

          20     knowledge or information that Aron's assertion

          21     regarding the factual errors is incorrect?  Can

          22     you dispute what Mr. Aron is saying?

          23          A.    No.

          24          Q.    At any time during the year 2000, did

          25     you become aware of any drop in productivity by


           1                            Mazza

           2     Mr. Murphy?

           3          A.    In the year 200?

           4          Q.    Yes.

           5          A.    I wouldn't know -- Mr. Murphy was my

           6     boss.  I wouldn't know what his productivity was

           7     or was not.

           8          Q.    You have no knowledge of any change in

           9     productivity of Mr. Murphy at any time between

          10     2000 and the time when he no longer serves as

          11     director of NYCERS; that is not something you know

          12     one way or the other?

          13          A.    No.

          14          Q.    Do you have any knowledge that there

          15     was any change in productivity by Browne at any

          16     time during the same period?

          17          A.    Again, she doesn't report to me.  I

          18     have no idea what she did or didn't do.

          19          Q.    Did you ever hear anything during that

          20     time period that would indicate that there was any

          21     reduction in productivity by either Browne or

          22     Murphy?

          23          A.    Between 2000 and 2004?

          24          Q.    Yes.

          25          A.    I don't remember.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    If something was said to you, Murphy is

           3     not doing his job or Browne is not doing her job,

           4     you have no recollection of that?

           5          A.    I have no recollection.

           6                MS. CARROLL:  Off the record.

           7                (Discussion off the record.)

           8          Q.    At any time in the year 2000 to 2004

           9     prior to the June 1 letter, did any person

          10     specifically complain to you regarding the

          11     Browne/Murphy relationship?

          12          A.    Complain?

          13          Q.    Yes.

          14          A.    Complain to me?

          15          Q.    Yes.

          16          A.    No.

          17          Q.    Did anybody say anything to you that

          18     Browne was getting promotions or raises because of

          19     her relationship with Murphy?  I am talking about

          20     200 to 2004.

          21          A.    No one complained to me directly.  Did

          22     I hear talk and rumors?  Yes.

          23          Q.    Who did you hear talk and rumors from?

          24          A.    Different people in the agency.

          25          Q.    People have names.  Who did you hear


           1                            Mazza

           2     from?

           3          A.    Natalia Rivera.

           4          Q.    What did you hear from Natalia Rivera?

           5          A.    That Mr. Murphy and Ms. Browne were

           6     having an affair, that she was being pushed up

           7     through the ranks because of that.  I was told by

           8     Sonia Grant, my paralegal, that people were

           9     talking about that also, that Browne was being

          10     pushed up because of the relationship.

          11          Q.    Yes.

          12          A.    Yes.

          13          Q.    When did Natalia Rivera tell you this?

          14     Was this 2004 or 2001?

          15          A.    I don't remember.

          16          Q.    She wasn't there in 2000, right,

          17     Rivera?

          18          A.    I don't know when she came.

          19          Q.    Did you ever take any steps to find out

          20     whether there was any truth to that statement?

          21          A.    That they were having an affair?

          22          Q.    No.  That Browne was pushed up, to use

          23     your term, in positions because of the

          24     relationship.

          25          A.    Since both Mr. Murphy and Ms. Browne


           1                            Mazza

           2     denied there was a relationship, there was nothing

           3     else to look into or to question.

           4          Q.    Did you have any basis, either by

           5     reference to her evaluations or any observation of

           6     her job performance, to credit the allegation that

           7     Browne was getting promotions other than on the

           8     merits of her job performance?

           9          A.    I had nothing to -- I didn't have

          10     access to her performance evaluations and I dealt

          11     with her most -- I dealt with her in all of her

          12     roles and she was fine -- I never had a problem

          13     with her work.

          14          Q.    Didn't you regularly have lunch after

          15     the NYCERS' offices moved to Brooklyn with Murphy,

          16     Browne, yourself and others?

          17          A.    No.

          18          Q.    You never sat in the lunch room

          19     together?

          20          A.    You asked me if I regularly have lunch

          21     with them?  No.  Did I ever have lunch with them

          22     once or twice?  Yes.

          23          Q.    In the whole time, once or twice?

          24          A.    In the whole time, once or twice.  I

          25     didn't sit in the lunch room.


           1                            Mazza

           2          Q.    Who is Sonia Grant?

           3          A.    My paralegal.

           4          Q.    What did she say to you?

           5          A.    Whenever she heard a rumor, she would

           6     tell me that people were talking about Mr. Murphy

           7     and Ms. Browne.

           8          Q.    But I am talking about in connection

           9     with Browne receiving raises and promotions other

          10     than on the merits.

          11                Sonia Grant never said anything about

          12     that to you, right?

          13          A.    Not about raises because we don't know

          14     necessarily what people are getting about raises,

          15     but when Niki was promoted and moved to membership

          16     and then promoted to director of administration,

          17     people felt she got it because of her relationship

          18     with Mr. Murphy.  That is what Ms. Grant told you.

          19          Q.    When she was promoted to membership,

          20     you had no knowledge that that was done; that

          21     transfer was done at the direction of Mr. Vallee?

          22                MR. MARKS:  Objection to the form.

          23          A.    I wasn't involved in it, no.

          24          Q.    You had no knowledge one way or the

          25     other?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    No.

           3          Q.    Other than these two people, do you

           4     have any other information regarding any

           5     allegations amongst staff regarding Browne's

           6     getting promotions and raises other than on the

           7     merits?

           8          A.    No.

           9          Q.    Do you know whether or not Mr. Aron

          10     made the decision to select Ms. Browne as the

          11     director of administration?  Do you know anything

          12     about that one way or the other?

          13          A.    I know what I read.  I will back up.

          14     No.  I didn't know at the time who picked her for

          15     that job.

          16          Q.    But you know from the Exhibit 4 that

          17     Mr. Aron made clear that he was involved with the

          18     selection of Ms. Browne, right?

          19          A.    Yes.

          20          Q.    And that it was his decision?

          21          A.    That is what I read -- do I know it

          22     directly?  No.  Do I know it from reading

          23     something?  Yes.

          24          Q.    You know that Mr. Aron made that

          25     information available to DOI?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    Yes.

           3          Q.    Was there any change at NYCERS with

           4     respect to moneys available for raises in or about

           5     the time that Mr. Aron becomes the deputy director

           6     at NYCERS till 2004, to your knowledge?

           7          A.    I don't know.

           8          Q.    Did you ever personally observe any

           9     change in morale at NYCERS incidental to these

          10     rumors about Browne and Murphy?

          11          A.    Yes.

          12          Q.    What did you observe other than what

          13     you have testified that Rivera and Grant said?

          14          A.    What did I observe?

          15          Q.    Yes.

          16          A.    People were not happy.  People felt

          17     that there was not a legitimate process for

          18     getting promoted.

          19          Q.    There wasn't a legitimate process for

          20     getting promoted throughout the agency?

          21          A.    In this case, in the director of

          22     administration case.

          23          Q.    What people are you talking about?  I

          24     mean not everybody was a candidate to be a

          25     director of administration.


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    There was a general malaise in the

           3     agency.

           4          Q.    I was asking you with respect to

           5     promotions.  I thought we were talking about the

           6     director of administration position, right?

           7                My question is, did anybody

           8     specifically speak with you regarding any claim

           9     that that selection by Aron or Browne was not on

          10     the merits?

          11          A.    Did anybody make a complaint to me?

          12          Q.    Say anything to you at all about it.

          13          A.    I don't remember.  I mean yes, people

          14     -- yes, I heard that, but I can't tell you who

          15     said it to me.

          16          Q.    Did you ever bring that matter to

          17     either Mr. Aron or Mr. Murphy's attention?

          18          A.    No.

          19          Q.    Were you interviewed for the position

          20     of executive director subsequent to Mr. Murphy's

          21     no longer having that position?

          22          A.    Yes.

          23          Q.    Who were you interviewed by?

          24          A.    Diane Bratcher, Joe Haslip, Mike

          25     Musaraca, Horatio Sparks and somebody from human


           1                            Mazza

           2     resources at the department of finance.

           3                MS. CARROLL:  Mark this document for

           4          identification as Mazza Exhibit 5.  It is a

           5          position description.

           6                (Mazza Exhibit 5, position description,

           7          marked for identification, as of this date.)

           8          Q.    Can you identify this document?

           9          A.    It says it is Executive Director New

          10     York City Employees Retirement System General

          11     Statement of Duties and Responsibilities.

          12          Q.    These are the minimum qualifications

          13     for the position?

          14          A.    I don't know.

          15          Q.    When you were interviewed regarding the

          16     position at NYCERS, were you asked any questions

          17     about your role in the Baksh resume revision?

          18          A.    No.

          19          Q.    Were you asked any questions during

          20     your interview for the executive position about

          21     the findings that the DOI made regarding your role

          22     in the Baksh resume revision?

          23          A.    No.

          24          Q.    Did you have any role in assisting

          25     Mr. Aron when he worked at NYCERS as the acting


           1                            Mazza

           2     director in the preparation of evaluations of

           3     persons who report to him?

           4          A.    In general, no.

           5          Q.    What about in specific?

           6          A.    There was one in specific where I did.

           7          Q.    What was that?

           8          A.    Niki Browne.

           9          Q.    What was her role?

          10          A.    He asked me to review the evaluation he

          11     prepared.

          12          Q.    What did you do?

          13          A.    I reviewed the evaluation he prepared.

          14          Q.    Did you make any revisions?

          15          A.    I don't believe so.

          16          Q.    Did you write any part of it?

          17          A.    No, I don't think so, no.

          18          Q.    It is a pretty important question.

          19                Did you write any part, any single word

          20     in any evaluation of Browne that was prepared by

          21     Aron?

          22          A.    If you're asking me did I write

          23     anything?  No.  Did I correct his grammar -- did I

          24     correct his grammar or spelling?  Yes.

          25          Q.    Corrections of spelling would not


           1                            Mazza

           2     change substance but corrections of grammar might.

           3                Did you make any corrections of the

           4     substance of the Aron evaluation of Browne which

           5     is N 0023 to N 0027?

           6                MR. MARKS:  I will object to the form.

           7          What does that have to do with this case?

           8                MS. CARROLL:  This is the last

           9          question.

          10                MR. MARKS:  I understand the desire

          11          your client has to gain information --

          12                MS. CARROLL:  Don't make speeches.

          13          Q.    What is the answer?

          14          A.    I don't remember.

          15                MS. CARROLL:  I need a short break.  I

          16          think we are done.

          17                (Recess taken.)

          18          Q.    What is Mr. Aron's status vis-a-vis

          19     NYCERS now, if any?

          20          A.    He is a volunteer.

          21          Q.    He has no paid position with NYCERS?

          22          A.    No.

          23          Q.    What about Sparks; does he have any

          24     paid position with NYCERS or as a consultant or

          25     anything?


           1                            Mazza

           2          A.    With NYCERS?

           3          Q.    Yes.

           4          A.    No.

           5          Q.    Aron has no consultantship with NYCERS

           6     now?

           7          A.    As of today?

           8          Q.    Yes.

           9          A.    No.

          10          Q.    Did he at any time subsequent to his

          11     being replaced as director and prior to today?

          12          A.    Subsequent to his retirement?  Yes.

          13          Q.    When did he have a position and what

          14     was it?

          15          A.    He was a consultant to NYCERS from when

          16     he retired until maybe October, November.

          17          Q.    Of what?

          18          A.    This year, 2006.

          19          Q.    Did you have any role in that contract?

          20          A.    Yes.

          21          Q.    What was your role?

          22          A.    I wrote it.

          23          Q.    Did you have any role in having it

          24     approved by the trustees?

          25          A.    No.



           2          Q.    Was it approved by the trustees?

           3          A.    The trustees don't approve contracts.

           4          Q.    Who approved it, D'Alassandro?

           5          A.    I don't know what you mean --

           6          Q.    Who would have to approve the

           7     consultant contract for Aron?

           8          A.    The executive director signs all NYCERS

           9     contracts.

          10                MS. CARROLL:  I am finished.

          11                MR. MARKS:  I have no questions.

          12                (Time noted:  1:45 p.m.)



          15                        KAREN MAZZA


          17          Subscribed and sworn to before me

          18          this          day of            , 2006.



          21          (Notary Public).

          22     My Commission Expires:






           2                C E R T I F I C A T E

           3     STATE OF NEW YORK     )
           4     COUNTY OF NEW YORK    )


           6                I, BARBARA DRISCOLL, a Shorthand

           7     Reporter and a Notary Public within and for the

           8     State of New York, do hereby certify that the

           9     foregoing deposition of KAREN MAZZA was taken

          10     before me on the 21st day of November, 2006;

          11                That the said witness was duly sworn

          12     before the commencement of her testimony; that the

          13     said testimony was taken stenographically by me and

          14     then transcribed.

          15                I further certify that I am not related

          16     by blood or marriage to any of the parties to this

          17     action or interested directly or indirectly in the

          18     matter in controversy; nor am I in the employ of

          19     any of the counsel in this action.

          20                IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

          21     my hand this 6th day of December, 2006.



          24                           BARBARA DRISCOLL




           2                          I N D E X


           4      Examinations                                 Page

           5      KAREN MAZZA          MS. CARROLL           4



           8                       E X H I B I T S

           9     No.                Description                Page


          11      1   document                                  13

          12      2   memorandum dated December 9, 2002         35

          13      3   E-mail dated 7/29/04                      60

          14      4   Bates number D 0483 through 85            83

          15      5   position description                      95


          17                    INFORMATION REQUESTED

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          20                           29       9


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          23                            None